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[css-d] Re: OT: Lack of Knowledge and the Web Factory

Sent by Timothy J. Luoma on 29 January 2002 13:01

On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Ziya Oz wrote:

> Are we worse off for having visual page layout tools or should we go back to
> hand coding PostScript?

Do the visual page layout tools make valid PostScript, or does the
PostScript only work for certain printers, say HP, to the exclusion of

> Are we worse off for having visual movie editing tools or should we go back
> to green-on-black terminals?

Do the visual movie editing tools make my QuickTime movie only play in

> Are we worse off for having GUIs or should we all go back to the dark ages
> of the CLI?

Well, you're talking to a Unix junky using PINE on a Windows 2000 machine.

The GUI is nice, but the CLI had plenty of things better.

> Do you think you'd even have a job currently as a web developer if it hadn't
> been for the proliferation of visual tools that fueled the critical mass of
> the HTML universe we have today?

Do you think we'd have the HTML mess we have today if it weren't for the
proliferation of visual tools that failed to follow standards and made it
easier for people to write bad code?

> Are you suggesting that people don't generate feeble code when not using
> visual tools?

I'm suggesting that whoever created FrontPage should be spun on a spit
over a slow fire for a thousand years along with the folks behind the x10
pop up ads, the disabling of right clicking, disabling the back button,

I am suggesting that the JavaScript atrocities that we've seen are due to
companies who sold visual tools for flash (no pun intended) over

> Do you think CSS has any chance of getting traction without visual tools
> making it easier for designers and others to adopt it?

I think CSS would have a much better chance of catching on if the market
had been primed for it by standards compliant browsers and standards
compliant HTML.

> I know it's fashionable to dump on visual tools as if knowing how to set
> properties for some divs by hand is some achievement that could obviate good
> judgment, a sense of proportion, ability to structure and plain design
> moxie.

As soon as I see a visual tool which is affordable and usable to the
masses and produces at least HTML4-Transitional code (by default)
preferably leaning towards XHTML (i.e. close your optional tags, at least)
then I will begin to know that the visual tools have reached a maturity

Then again, I still think WordPerfect is superior to Word if for no other
reason than "Reveal Codes"

> Three cheers for visual tools,
> and may they continue to get better.

I certainly agree with that last part!  Every visual tool today should be
creating valid code(*) -- using CSS in such a way as to degrade nicely to
those poor unfortunate souls still trapped in the purgatory of NN4.x

At least that's how I see it


ps (*) - yes I realize some would say that 'code' isn't the right word for
web pages, but it's a habit

Timothy J. Luoma ~ ~ [EMAIL-REMOVED]
Amateur Webdesigner Extraordinaire
Favorite pasttime: Finding and Reporting obscure typos in webpages
"Good web designers are frequently validated"
Replies to the list preferred unless I've wandered too far OT :-)
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