>http://stainedpaper.com/css-d/1/index.html Add "background: red;" to the entry for the h2, and you'll see how wide the title box actually is. >http://www.ravensaints.com/test/title_date.htm You may have missed the requirement that the boxes must not have a fixed size. To get an idea where I am trying to go, see this: http://www.hacksaw.org/cgi-bi n/diarytest.cgi This is the old all html 'n' tables approach. I'm looking for that without the stupid html tricks and more control over the borders. Using a table for just the title and date line is okay, I was just wondering if it were possible to avoid it. If you choose the link at the top ("see this thing from the other end of time"), you'll see the CSS version, in it's current not quite there state. -- Rather than looking for something to talk about, consider learning to be comfortable with silence. http://www.hacksaw.org -- http://www.privatecircus.com -- KB1FVD ______________________________________________________________________ css-discuss [EMAIL-REMOVED]] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/