Alan, I appreciate your comments, however I think most of them are a little unduly harsh and not directed at the problem. > First of all this page is a mess. You've got empty divs like > <div id="topbc2">... These empty DIVs exist because I'm using Adobe GoLive templates to create the web pages. These templates allow me to update the entire site by editing the one source template. There are no empty DIVs on any other page other than the one you referenced. They exist on the one page you reference because it is the top page, and so it has a very slightly different layout. Instead of creating a separate template for the one page, I used the same one, so that it can be updated when I update everything else. The cost of having one or two empty DIVs is far outweighed by having a template that applies to the entire site. > If you want help, you need to clean this up as much as possible before > asking people to look at it. I think it is not unreasonably messy. Everything is ordered, and there for a reason. If I've made a mistake, it's not because of sloppiness, but because I thought it was how it had to be done. > Second, let's consider the original footer example: > In order for the footer to sit at the bottom of the page, it > must be in its > own div, not a div nested in another div. But in the example page, where the effect works, the footer *is* inside another DIV. > Third: > The content that's in <div id="bottombc2">. Why can't this > be part of the > div footer as well? Again, templates. The footer graphic is one GIF image which doesn't change from page to page. The div you are referring to holds a "breadcrumb trail" which changes page to page. > Fourth: > Stay away from multiple <br> tags. This I will do. -- Cheers! Dave G [EMAIL-REMOVED] ______________________________________________________________________ css-discuss [EMAIL-REMOVED]] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/